[Capri25] Backstay question -- Reminder on WYC Capri 25 Fleet Rules
Dan McNamara
mcnamara at visi.com
Tue Dec 30 23:05:43 UTC 2008
If we did not average over 25 Capri 25's at the starting line for each
race I too would race a different boat.
On Dec 30, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Glenn Selvin wrote:
> Our boat came with a jib cunningham... I took it off as it did
> little more than get in the way. Our problem has been headstay sag,
> plain and simple. Our "pinch the wires together" system never
> worked quite right, in that I think the backstay is too long, thus,
> the sheaves are bottoming out on those little wire legs before its
> becoming effective.
>
> So... I could either drop the rig and replace the backstay with a
> shorter version, or, I could simply do away with the "pinch the
> wires together" system and simply do it the right way by cascading
> the shit out of it. And since there is zero Capri 25 one design
> sailing in Southern California, and since we're forced to race PHRF
> with our 25, cascading made sense.
>
> When I want to sail one design? Thanks, but I'll sail my Finn. :)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan McNamara
> To: Glenn Selvin
> Cc: Mark Hammett ; Garry Cooke ; Ruedenberg,Emanuel (Rudy) ; capri25 at lists.wyc.org
> ; Kenneth Reiff
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Capri25] Backstay question -- Reminder on WYC Capri 25
> Fleet Rules
>
> For those interested,
>
> A tangental piece of equipment is the jib cunningham. On Consensus
> we play this more then the backstay and vang. And always in with
> added backstay tension to de-power in a puff. Before each race we
> set our rig to the lulls, our halyards to the average. When the
> puff hits the sheets get eased, the jib cunningham goes on hard and
> the driver feathers up. The jib cunningham gets eased as the bow
> comes down. Because of this we have never maxed out our backstay.
> The driver uses it to balance the helm, the trimmer may put it on
> hard after the genoa has been eased. It is not to say that we
> should not goto our backstay sooner but the reality is that the
> trimmer and driver have their hands full where the Foredeck can
> actively trim the jib cunningham in the puffs. Another advantage is
> it brings the Genoa draft forward, backstay alone brings the draft
> back. The two in tandem keep the draft forward, reduce headstay
> sag, bend the mast aft flattening the main and opening the slot.
>
> I guess it would not hurt to beef up the headstay tang but I don't
> see a need for a more powerful backstay if all the other things you
> can do to keep the boat flat and going up wind are happening.
>
> The whole premiss of the WYC fleet is the take an inexpensive boat
> (poorly design and hard to race to its rating) and race it one-
> design. Having just campaigned a J 24 for the North American's I
> have a greater appreciation for our rules ( 6 pages vs over 80 and
> thousands of appeals). Our scant 6 pages have captured the essence
> of what it takes to be a one-design by keeping the keel, rudder and
> rig uniform, sails to fit a box and allowing any other
> modifications. Starting with a POS boat it is more important to
> have a good crew then good gear. The WYC C25 one design rules
> captured this perfectly allowing each boat to layout their deck to
> maximize their crew work. When we get beat by more then a boat
> length it was either my tactics or a crew mistake that cost us.
> Every one in the fleet has the same design problems to overcome, how
> well each boat does that usually decides that race. Why any one
> would race a Capri 25 handicapped is beyond me.
>
> Dan McNamara
> WYC C25 Crew of the Year
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2008, at 12:43 PM, Glenn Selvin wrote:
>
>> We are a Southern California based Capri 25. In fact, we used the
>> factory tangs as attachment points for our cascading backstay, and
>> upon that backstay upgrade, I decided that I'd better beef up our
>> headstay attachment.
>>
>> My plan is simply to leave the factory bow fitting in place, and to
>> simply install a new tang, through bolted to the bow. That tang
>> will not be welded to the bow fitting, as I don't feel like going
>> through the gyrations of removing that factory fitting so as to
>> take it to a welder. Instead, I'll simply install the new bow
>> tang, laying it right over the existing factory piece. Thus, the
>> headstay will attach to BOTH the existing factory piece, AND the
>> bow tang through bolted to the bow.
>>
>> Why Catalina didn't do this to begin with is beyond me. And as to
>> the Wayzata fleet? Why not change your bylaws and allow the
>> backstay upgrade? Its much nicer than the "pinch the wires
>> together" system.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Mark Hammett
>> To: Garry Cooke ; Ruedenberg,Emanuel (Rudy)
>> Cc: capri25 at lists.wyc.org ; Kenneth Reiff
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:38 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Capri25] Backstay question -- Reminder on WYC Capri
>> 25 Fleet Rules
>>
>> Greetings Everyone;
>>
>> I would like to remind all the local Capri 25 Fleet members that
>> are reviewing this discussion thread that the installation of a
>> cascaded backstay is a departure from the local fleet rules - A
>> cascaded backstay was installed on Capri 25 #009 "Divine
>> Inspiration" and was later disallowed because it altered the
>> original running rig as defined by the local rules. For all the out
>> of town Capri's its a great way to get additional purchase and
>> manual force to reduce headstay sag and flex the mast, bending the
>> center forward to force for a flatter main in heavy air.
>>
>> Engineering Notes: Cascading Backstays and Headsail Tacks
>>
>> Backstay -- The angle of the backstay is very important due to the
>> roach of the standard mainsails. PHRF mains that conform to the
>> original Capri 25 rules (the PHRF standard) have a greater roach
>> than our local Capris. This means that cascading blocks should use
>> the original chainplate positions on the stern and not be lead
>> directly to the eye on the cockpit deck aft of the rudder post.
>> That eye is for the adjuster rig only. If you cascade to the eye
>> on deck the backstay angle is reduced by as much as 6 inches, which
>> makes low wind tacks and gybes of the mainsail difficult.
>> Especially so if you use a small amount of backstay to create a
>> better entry on the headsail for sailing up wind.
>>
>> The headstay plate -- This can be changed to the J24 hardware with
>> minimal alterations (but to bend it with a hammer and vise may
>> weaken the plate). Several of the local Capris in the WYC fleet
>> have had a 6" L x 3/16" T x 1" W - SS chainplate welded to the
>> original tack plate and have 1 to 3 countersunk 3/8" dia. screws
>> and a reinforcement block on the inside with fender washers and
>> lock nuts. The total length of the chainplate addition is up to the
>> owner but 6 inches (with 2 holes) is typical. The rub-rail on the
>> bow point does not need to be removed; just slightly altered to
>> accommodate the chainplate thickness and width when installing it
>> underneath. I use a 1" chissle to pry the aluminum rail from the
>> hull. The chissle will stretch the aluminum nicely without
>> breaking it. Just be gentle and be sure you remove the mounting
>> screws under the rubber (the most forward ones) first.
>>
>> One good thing about adding the chainplate in the bow -- it you t-
>> bone someone -- the damage to your bow will be significantly
>> reduced -- just ask the guys on Fore Sail who tapped Ham-It-Up!
>> this year...
>>
>> Happy sailing,
>>
>> Mark Hammett
>> Capri 25 #370
>> Ham-It-Up!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Garry Cooke
>> Sent: Dec 30, 2008 9:53 AM
>> To: "Ruedenberg, Emanuel (Rudy)"
>> Cc: capri25 at lists.wyc.org, Kenneth Reiff
>> Subject: Re: [Capri25] Backstay question
>>
>> sorry I noticed a typing error, the 35% should be 25%.
>> regards
>> Garry
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Garry Cooke
>> <garry.cooke at gmail.com> wrote:
>> You need to be careful how much force you are putting into your
>> boat. The backstay tension should be limited to no more than 35%
>> the breaking strain of the backstay wire. If you put too much
>> tension in the rig, you will increase significantly the compression
>> force in the mast and risk damage to the bottom of your boat. I
>> know of two Express 30's where the owners put too much back stay
>> tension and drove the mast down, and cracked the bottom of the
>> boat, and in one case, let water in. I also know of some Viking
>> 28's where the deck has been buckled by too much backstay tension.
>> It would be wise to get a Loos gauge to ensure that you are not
>> over stressing your rig.
>>
>> good luck
>> Garry
>> Capri 25 'Endeavour'
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Ruedenberg, Emanuel (Rudy) <Emanuel.Ruedenberg at bsci.com
>> > wrote:
>> You should definitely call Bruce Tamm from 'Tsunami' if he does not
>> answer this email. He and I know others, have had terrible
>> problems at the bow. I seem to remember that the force of the
>> forestay separated the foredeck or something…..
>>
>>
>>
>> good luck
>>
>>
>>
>> rudy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Emanuel 'Rudy' Ruedenberg
>>
>> Sr. Quality Engineer
>>
>> CQE,CQA
>>
>> Boston Scientific
>>
>> 763-494-1468
>>
>> Cell 612-201-7238
>>
>> MS B260
>>
>>
>>
>> From: capri25-bounces at lists.wyc.org [mailto:capri25-bounces at lists.wyc.org
>> ] On Behalf Of Kenneth Reiff
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 2:28 AM
>> To: capri25 at lists.wyc.org
>> Subject: [Capri25] Backstay question
>>
>>
>>
>> We've replaced the standard "pinch the two wires together" type of
>> backstay adjuster with a very nice, and powerful, cascade system as
>> we've always had problems getting the backstay tight enough to get
>> rid of headstay sag while in breeze. With this new cascading
>> system, trust me, we're not going to have headstay problems anymore.
>>
>> My question? I looked below at the very front of the boat in front
>> of that little wooden piece, and the headstay fitting is only
>> through bolted at the top with no back up plate, and only one bolt
>> in the front stem, under the rub rail. Typical Catalina
>> construction... cheap.
>>
>> Has anyone in the Wayzata fleet improved their backstay adjusting
>> arrangement with a more powerful cascade? And has anyone ever
>> beefed up the headstay piece? I'm thinking of removing it, then
>> welding on a much longer tang, so that I have about three bolts
>> through the stem of the boat, not just one. Plus, Catalina used no
>> back up plates, only washers, which scares me. Has anyone put on
>> too much backstay tension and yanked the headstay fitting right off
>> the freaking deck? Or am I just being paranoid because these boats
>> are built so poorly? Thoughts on yanking off your headstay fitting
>> would be appreciated. If you could, please email me at
>>
>> --
>> Ken Reiff
>> Email: kenreiff at gmail.com
>> Cell: 562-637-6630
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Capri25 at lists.wyc.org
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> e-mail: garry.cooke at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> e-mail: garry.cooke at gmail.com
>>
>>
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>
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